1977 Traffic Commission Minutes
r~ I NUTES
TRAFF I C COI~M I SS ION
January 25, 1977
A. Pursuant to due cal I, a special meeTing of the Traffic Commission was cal led to order at 5:10 p.m. on
Tuesday, January 25, 1977, at the City Hal I, 4401 Xylon Avenue North.
B. ROLL CALL WAS TAKEN: Present: Larson, Dupay, Kastanos, and Murphy
Absent: London and Malik
There are two citizen vacancies
Others present were: Pete Fausch from DOT and Jerry Harrington, Petitioner on a development at
42nd/#18/Gettysburg Avenue.
C. Mr. Larson explained that the Commission meeting had been cal led in response to a request by the Plan-
ning Commission.r.1r.Harrington has proposed a 215 unit Section 8 i:lousing project at the Southeast corner
of #18/42nd. The Planning Commission was concerned about the impact on the area by the traffic gener-
ated from the project. Mr. Larson stated he felt that the main areas of concern should be: What would
the total number of car trips per day be in and out of the site; could the streets in the area physi-
cally handle the traffic; what would be the I ikely routes of traffic; were there any specific control
devices that could be used -- or should be used -- to control the routing?
Mr. Harrington briefly outl ined the project, noting the 215 units, 115 of elderly, 99 of fami Iy in one
major bui Iding, exiting to Gettysburg at the Northeast corner of the site. He further noted that the
commercial ar'ea proposed to the Planning Commission had been withdrawn and that he had acquired an op-
tion to pick up most of "Outlot A" so that the entire open space in the quadrant was now planned for
development. He had about 12.6 acres for the 215 units or about 17 units per acre -- most of which were
elderly and one bedroom.
Short discussion on the number of people. Harrington noted that the elderly would be I imited to two
people per unit and the family to four people -- or a minimum of 628 people. Experience shows that the
average per unit wil I not be this high.
Mr. Murphy then presented the traffic study projections based on studies developed for use by the Henne-
pin County Highway Department.
After reviewing the projects, the Commission agreed that the trips in and out of the site, based on the
type of development proposed would be in a range of 100~1400 trips per day.
QJestions \'iere raised on a comparison with a single family development. Based on 0 moximum of 50 houses
some 550 trips would be generated -- even though only 1/4 of the units would be present the trips per
unit were estimated at I I vs. 3.27 per unit in the proposed elderly.
The time of day data was then reviewed in order to determine the warrents that might be avai lable at
Gettysburg and 42nd to justify signal ization. Because of the type of development proposed, with most
trips in off hours, the charts indicated that the warrent would probably not be avai lable to justify a
signa I.
Even adding the church traffic from the North, .it did not appear that enough traffic could be developed
to warrent signals.
Discussion then centered on what other factors were present that might justify signal ization of the inter-
section at Gettysburg/42nd. Mr. Fausch led discussion pointing out that this intersection was somewhat
different than the ordinary. The intersection at 18/42nd was constructed to freeway design, while 42nd
East of #18 was a standard urban road. This in turn created an immediate confl ict in the transition area
right at the Gettysburg intersection. The combination of high speed as vehicles came off the freeway
designed interchange, combined with the curve on 42nd from the West, the I imited sight distance to the
West for cars entering the interesection from Gettysburg and the extra width of 42nd for crossing created
a difficult situation for drivers even if the volume were low. In addition, the many potential elderly
drivers would have the normal difficulty in traffic, compounded by the poor design features noted.
Discussion held on problems of instal I ing a signal. Fausch, Kastanos and Murphy were concerned about
the potent i a I for rear end ace i dents on 42nd \1 i th a signa I. The "book" chances on th i s are much greater
than the broadside hit coming out of Gettysburg.
Several comments made about the need to close the median on 42;,d. Larson pointed out that he did not
feel this should be discussed since Council had stated that it would not be closed.
Mr. Murphy raised a question on bus service. It appeared that Medicine Lake Lines would probably be wi I l_
ing to work out an internal pickup, but I~TC would not. Consideration then given to providing a turn out
lane on the South side of 42nd just West of Gettysburg. It appeared that this approach would have some
merit and if it could be combined with a shelter anda path to the apartment bui Iding, several trips per
day could be cut from vehicle traffic,
Discussion then turned to where would traffic go and what could or should be done to control. Larson
pointed out three possible changes that had been suggested: they were cul-du-sac for Gettysburg; closing
off the Jordan Avenue creek crossing and an intersection divider at Ensign at 401 Avenue.
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In the opinion of the people present none of these suggestions have any merit from the physical street use.
In terms of traffic engineering al I three traffic routes should be avai lable so that traffic could seek
its own route. The total number of car trips were not enough to overload any street and it was desirable
to encourage a spread of traffic to avoid any extra load at a specific intersection. The only suggestion
at the time that did not appear to be in direct confl ict with traffic circulation was the closing off of Jordan.
This was, however, strongly objected to by Chief Kastanos based on the emergency service needs. Even if the
street was kept wel I plowed, etc. getting out and opening the chain etc. could take several minutes and this
was too much time to waste in the case of personal injury, a heart problem, etc.
The concensus on the three alternative suggestions was that Jordan should not be blocked because of the
emergency service needs; that the intersection dividerat 40t/Ensign would simply be an inconvenience and
in fact, cause a greater traffic entry problem on to 42nd and thus create more problems there. Cul-du-sacing
Gettysburg would force al I traffic out 42nd, thus creating a larger load on the intersection that had problems
because of the design and either with or without a signal, major problems would exist. Even with signage,
many people would probably turn on to Gettysburg and then be forced out, creating more problems.
It was, therefore, felt that the only viable solution was to obtain a signal at 42nd/Gettysburg and have the
other South routes open so al I traffic could seek its natural route. The signal would assist in development
of a more safe entrv on to 42nd.
Suggestions were made as to possible changes in the ramp at 42nd/#18 to slow down traffic coming up the curve
East bound on 42nd to force a better situation at Gettysburg.
i'1r. Harrington suggested that with County permission the .sight problem could be C<;Jrrected to some degree by
grading at the intersection and combining a bus turn out lane to open the view to the \'lest.
Concensus was that the signal was the best alternative and that the City should attempt to get the County in-
volved in finding solutions to the design problem, that a bus turn out with shelter and extra grading should
be reviewed.
Motion by Kastanos, second by Dupay, carried with Larson, Kastanos, Dupay and Murphy voting for; None against;
Mal ik and London absent, to recommend that the 42nd/Gettysburg intersection be siqnal ized with County coopera-
tion sought to improve the design and that the other three suagested controls be reiected for the reasons
discussed.
i'iotion carried.
(Since only four melobers were present a quor~~ ~as not avai lable and this motion should only be considered as
an advisory action).
There being no further business to co~e before the special meeting, the meetina was adjourned at 6:18 p.m.
Re,p~~I.IITY ubmitted,
/J!~~t.4
/ ';Iyn G. Lar. son
City Manager
MINUTES
TRAFFIC COMMISSION
City of New Hope, Minnesota
1. A meeting of the New Hope Traffic Commission was held at the City Hall,
4401 Xylon Avenue North, on June 23, 1977. The meeting was called to
order at 8:05 p.m. by Chairman Larson
2. Members present inc1 uded: Uike Malik, William Dupay, Colin Kastanos,
and Har1yn Larson
3.
Two petitioners were present. Mr.
and Irvin Abramson, 3672 Ensign.
Commission.
Edward Davis, 9433 Northwood Parkway,
Mr. Larson explained the role of the
4. The peti tion of Mr. Davis was reviewed first. It was for a three-way
stop sign at Jordan and Northwood Parkway. Short discussion held.
Kastanos reviewed briefly the results of police action in the area --
four tags had been issued,all to area residents. Mr. Davis commented
on problems he had seen and noted that the people were aware of the
possible added noise etc. that could result from stopping all traffic
at this point. The criteria for stop signs in the Traffic Plan were
reviewed. Mr. Malik left the meeting f.or a few minutes.
Following discussion, motion by Dupay, second by Kastanos, to recommend
to the City Council that an all-way sign be installed at Northwood and
Jordan. Notion carried with all voting in favor. (Malik returned then
and was recorded as in favor).
5. The peti tion of Abramson was then reviewed. In addi tion to the specific
request for stop signs on Northwood from Boone to Jordan, several other
concerns had been gathered by Mr. Abramson as he circulated the petition
in the area. These included:
a) One of the biggest complaints from residents was speed of buses
com~ng dovm the hills.
Police had checked speed and found buses within limits. Mr. Abram-
son appeared to feel this was not a major problem. He was told to
contact Mr. Larson at the School District if he found other problems
with buses.
b) Was there a petition that was turned down for stop lights at 36th
and Boone?
To the knowledge of the commission members, no petition had been
received or denied. Discussion on limited traffic and how this
was better served by stop signs than lights. Mr. Davis observed he
also felt it would be a waste of money to install lights at this
location.
c) Would even appreciate one sign on the middle of Gettysburg and Jordan.
These are long streets.
2.
c) Discussion held on problem of placing stop signs in middle of hill
for winter stop and starts. Also Davis and Abramson agreed that
the signs in the middle of a block would serve no real purpose and
would probably be driven through by most drivers.
d) Heavy trucks are using Northwood Parkway from #18 to get to Boone.
Want police to be aware.
Discussion indicated the only trucks found in the area were those
serving construction or home delivery or an occasional lost truck.
Hr. Davis noted that he found almost no truck traffic at Jordan and
Northwood.
e) People walking dogs through park.
It was noted people could walk dogs but were supposedly to pick up
droppings. Citizens suggested the newsletter carry a reminder of
the regulations.
f)
People using tennis courts
only one lane for traffic.
ing, etc.
park on both sides of Northwood - leaving .
Cuts down on visibility as to kids cross-
Discussion indicated general agreement that the parking did become a
problem at times. Hr. Dupay noted "no parking signs" had been in-
stalled several years ago but were removed because of area citizens
complaints.
Discussion centered on which side of the street would be best to have
"no parking" if it ~vas to be approved. Concensus was that this was a
decision that should be made by the people living on this street.
Motion by Halik, second by Kastanos to recommend to the City Council
tiE installation of uno parking" signs on Northwood between Boone and
Decatur. The side of the street to be determined by the residents
of the adjacent homes. Motion carrie~ with all voting in favor.
g) There is only one "Caution Children" sign in the residential area
from Boone to Jordan - Northwood to 36th.
It was noted that the City cannot install these signs any longer and
had just completed removal of those installed earlier. in town.
h) People do not feel that street lighting is adequate -- center of
blocks and the circles.
Following discussion, it was found that the real problem was at the
end of Northwood Circle. The City Manager explained that the people
had not wanted one installed in '69. If they had changed their minds
they could simply all sign a letter indicating approval and the light
would be ordered under current City policy.
The major subject, the request for stop signs on Northwood Parkway,
was then discussed. Hr. Abramson noted that traffic appeared to
have increased as a result of the signs placed on 40~ North of the lake.
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h) Also people were cutting down Northwood to avoid the stop at 36th/
Boone. The problems associated with adding signs -- noise, stopping
and starting, higher speed between signs, etc. - was discussed. Mr.
Malik related the experience on 40~ where some problems had developed
but overall the effect was to lower traffic and speed. General agree-
ment seemed to be, following discussion, that some control was pro-
bably needed, but every block was too much.
Motion by
that "all
at Flag.
Malik, second by Kastanos to recommend to the Ci ty Council
way" stop signs be installed on Northwood at Hillsboro and
Motion carried with all voting in favor.
6. Chairman Larson asked if anyone had other items. Mr. Malik asked if any-
thing could be done about protection for the cross walk on Boone? Discus-
sion had been held last year. Mr. Larson asked Kastanos to have his people
review the prOblems and report back within two weeks as to any action that
might be taken.
Mr. Malik then asked why the TR project at Boone/42nd had not been referred
to the Traffic Commission. Mr. Larson noted it had not been and he was
not sure it should have been.
7. There being no further business the Chairman adjourned the meeting at
8:11 p.m.
submitted,